Segregation row at Stoke Newington swimming pool

Children from a Hackney swimming club have been advised to leave their local pool via a fire exit so they are kept “segregated” from members of a Jewish group.

The Clissold Swimming Club (CSC) uses the main pool at the Clissold Leisure Centre in Stoke Newington every Sunday evening until 6pm.

The North London Jewish Youth Club (NLJYC) has paid the centre’s managers GLL for exclusive use of the centre from 6pm, but the two groups overlap during entry and exit.

Now the Clissold Swimming Club has written to its members telling them it is “essential” for the two groups to be kept separate.

The letter stated: “As the CSC swimmers will only leave the main pool at 6pm it is essential that they and their parents in the gallery are segregated from the NLJYC members… The last of the CSC swimmers will leave the main pool at 6pm and proceed directly to the changing rooms where they will shower and dress promptly. To ensure segregation from the NLJYC, CSC will station a responsible adult in each changing room to direct the swimmers away from the exit to the foyer. When the swimmers leave it will be through the fire exit adjacent to the swimmers’ entry point to the main pool.”

Molly Mulready-Jones, whose son is a member of the Clissold Swimming Club, said she was shocked by the protocol. She said: “I’ve always been really pleased to be raising my kids in Hackney as the community prides itself on being comprised of so many different cultures living happily together, but now my child has to leave his local swimming pool via the fire exit in order not to breach a segregation policy. It makes me feel sad that we can’t all just rub along a bit better than this.”

She added that other parents had also been surprised by the use of the term “segregation” in the letter.

North London Jewish Youth Club manager Mark Grosskopf said the protocol had been put in place to prevent girls wearing swimming gear from mixing with boys – something that is forbidden among orthodox Jews.

He added that the NLJYC had paid three times the normal price to hire the pool on a Sunday night so as to have exclusive use of it and had even booked it from 5.30pm and forfeited their first half hour of swimming to avoid any overlap with others.

He said: “If it wasn’t for us, the centre would have closed at 5pm. We give up our first half hour of swimming to accommodate them. I can see where they are coming from because they think, why should we use a different exit, but perhaps these are new parents who do not have all the information and are not aware that we did them a favour.”

He added that he thought the letter could perhaps have been better worded so as to explain that it was a problem for his group to have girl swimmers walking past boys from the North London Jewish Youth Club. However, he said he did not blame whoever had drafted it.

The Clissold Swimming Club did not respond to an email request for a statement.

A spokeswoman for GLL said: “In order to effectively manage the changeover between the two swimming sessions an entrance and exit protocol was agreed by both swimming clubs and GLL. This has worked successfully for the past two years and all parties remain happy with what has been put in place.”

32 Comments

  1. Matt Woods on Saturday 10 March 2012 at 08:55

    Lunacy. What if the local Chapter of Nation of Islam booked the pool and demanded that Jews and Whites be kept separate? Or if the BNP wanted to run a “whites only” session?

    It would seem that incivility is tolerated if the excuse of religion is invoked.



  2. Charlotte sometimes on Saturday 10 March 2012 at 10:34

    So it’s ok to suggest to little girls that there’s something wrong with them, so that they have to be kept seperate, just because some backwards people want it that way?

    I don’t care how much money they pay but that’s disgusting.



  3. Julia on Saturday 10 March 2012 at 19:17

    Right, I’m Jewish and I think this is a horrible policy. If you want to raise your children in a single-gender religious environment, you can do that in your own home and in your own community institutions, but this pool is a public place funded with public money, and it should not be used to reinforce any religious group’s segregation. It sends the message that one group is dirty or lesser, and nobody should be made to feel like that. It’s also horrible PR, and people will use it to slur all Jews as having a superiority complex when in truth the majority of us see nothing wrong with respecting the secular nature of public institutions.

    People having a problem with the integration of all Hackney residents in a Hackney council facility should use a private pool where they will not have to worry about these things and where they can control who can enter. They cannot use funds collected from all residents of the borough to enforce inequality in the name of religion. Public money should ensure equal treatment, and not be spent on creating a two-tier system for ANY group.

    I assume Hackney would not accommodate any groups that wanted Black children to exit separately from White children, or that would keep disabled children hidden from the sight of able-bodied ones for fear of “contamination,” and the same principle should apply here. If you want to discriminate, you cannot use public resources to do so. It doesn’t matter if you gave up a half hour of your time or paid extra money – that doesn’t give you authority to impose religious standards on others. It’s a blatant violation of the principles of equality that we hope our governments would enforce.

    I’m ashamed that this is happening in the name of my people and I would like to apologise to any non-Jewish kids who have been made to feel inferior because of it. Especially to the girls. You are not dirty or wrong just because you exist. Please don’t think that all Jews are like this.

    People are free to practice their religion, but they are not free to treat other people like dirt in public places as part of it.



  4. abraham jacobson on Monday 12 March 2012 at 16:53

    Here they go again Jew bashing. It would be of benefit if those apologetic Jews who feel it is important to apologise for all the wrongs in the world even if they are not at fault to chech the FACTS and ideally the FULL article not just the headlines.

    Gender segregation has and always will be strictly adhered to with in the strictly orthodox Jewish community. Is it appropriate for boys from ANY background to be waiting outside the entrance to a changing room waiting for girls to leave?

    The Jewish community prides itself rightly that children are not born out of wedlock and there are no unplanned births and abortion problems. TVs and internet access children are banned from watching but it is interesting to note that the Jewish Schools seem to get remarkably good results in the exams why?

    What we have here is someone who has obviously not been made aware of the full facts regarding the segregation policy being asked to comment to a newspaper. I have spoken to Mark Grosskopf who if anyone has ever met him would find him to be an amiable sort of person who does not look or talk like the religious extremist you are trying to portray.

    With regard to the Clissold Swimming Club from what I can see it is a private club who use the public pool for private sessions just like the NLJYC ( and pay for it) out of hours and for the last 2 years have worked with one another harmoniously. It is a pity that a self hating Jew like Julia feel fit to knock the strictly orthodox Jewish community.

    Julia and anyone is welcome to visit Jewish Community in North London where she will see the unity and respect they have for EVERYONE. Please note sexual harrasment and harrasment of any sort is NOT tolerated within the community but safeguards must be made and women are not treated like a commodity, something which other groups have a lot to learn from.



  5. Linda Kelly on Monday 12 March 2012 at 20:31

    Well done Molly Mulready Jones, if Josh Loeb had told me you were behind the letter, I would not have encouraged Mark to speak to the Hackney Citizen.

    Where is tolerance and respect for culture and religion.

    Well done Molly Mulready Jones



  6. Molly Mulready-Jones on Tuesday 13 March 2012 at 09:21

    I totally respect your culture and religion. That is why I would never dream of insisting my kids swim separately from yours, or force your kids to be ushered out the fire exit as quickly as possible so my kids don’t have to be near them.

    In contrast, there is absolutely nothing respectful or tolerant in what NLYJC are demanding here: ‘I respect and tolerate you, yes, but could you just take your grubby little children out the fire exit please? I don’t want them contaminating mine.’ How lovely. I’m just sat here basking in the glow of your respect and tolerance.



  7. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Tuesday 13 March 2012 at 21:32

    It is a pity that this whole issue could not have been explained face to face by contacting the NLJYC directly. I think that Mark Grosskopf has explained the situation quite clearly. I am prepared to meet anyone in person who still believes they have an issue with this non issue.

    I personally believe that the Hackney Citizen could do better than try to stir up a non existant race relations row which has more to do with segregation of the sexes than religions.



  8. Dave on Wednesday 14 March 2012 at 23:23

    Would you take your kids swimming with a nudist group? Something tells me that you wouldn’t.

    For orthodox Jews, for whom modesty is a priority, boys and girls swimming together or even meeting in the changing rooms or pool.

    Boys and girls mixing for us is just like the general public and nudist beaches.

    Anyway, they are being accommodating, so why all the fuss? They are not bothering anybody so why not live and let live?

    Where is your tolerance?



  9. linda kelly on Thursday 15 March 2012 at 17:13

    Dear Molly Mulready-Jones, the very fact you chose to contact Hackney Citizen, first and not the Organisation, to understand why this happening shows your lack tolerance and understanding.

    So you got the attention you required on this matter, pat yourself on the back, circulate it your friends.

    Should allow people to live and let live, but then this may apply to some more than others.



  10. I say it with love on Thursday 15 March 2012 at 18:26

    Dear Abraham

    Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not make them “anti-semitic” or a “jew basher”.

    You cannot expect to pull the religion card and get a free pass to any sort of behaviour.

    The point which Abraham may be missing is this is a public pool. Enough of my rates when into this chaos that we all have a right to freely use its facilities.

    If you or members of your community do not like this arrangement – there is a solution: Buy your own pool and do what you like.



  11. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Thursday 15 March 2012 at 19:02

    Dear I say It with love

    With greatest respect to yourself, if you read the full article rather than skimmed over it you will find that it is a non issue for everyone concerned and everything is explained.

    I REPEAT that if you have any issue you are welcome to meet me in person.



  12. Broken Britain on Thursday 15 March 2012 at 20:22

    I was once ordered out of Hackney Baths because a woman’s only swimming session was about to start. I did a quick last lap and got death stares from the dare I say rather large butch ladies in the shallow end. We are forced to be tolerent of the untolerent



  13. robotn1k on Tuesday 20 March 2012 at 13:42

    It’s interesting that it’s the local Councillor who’s the first to jump in throwing around capitals and words like ‘bashing’ and ‘self hating’!



  14. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Wednesday 21 March 2012 at 11:01

    Dear Robotn1k
    Geography obviously wasn’t your chosen subject in school. I am a Councillor in the Cazenove ward not Clissold ward where the swimming baths are situated

    You could do well to check the full facts on the non issue before you anonymously put your two pennies worth!



  15. Peacepeople on Sunday 8 April 2012 at 23:55

    Good gracious. If I had to make a choice I’d take my kids swimming with nudists over a group that disbarred female/male people, black/white people, jewish/muslim anyday. We must not allow gender segregation to be normalised at any time. We rightly would not allow a return to the fifties by treating people differntly because of melatonin – why accept it because of anatomy? Its absurd. Public places should not be segregated (and yes, if the the requires absolutism that means loos and changing rooms too if the alternative is this nonsense).



  16. Dan on Tuesday 29 May 2012 at 20:45

    Lol! The councillor seems like a nice guy – check out his tweets to this popular Hackney blogger

    http://www.duchessofhackney.com/2012/04/18/councillor-abraham-jacobson-support-pauline-pearce-because-she-is-black-like-you-are/

    Another liberal democrat councillor who will very quickly be losing his ward.



  17. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Sunday 3 June 2012 at 02:01

    Dear Dan
    Look at blog post 11 my offer still stands. What sickens me is bloggers who hide under a cloak of anonymity whilst spewing out their nasty threats and hatred to anyone who may dare to disagree with them.



  18. The Duchess of Hackney on Monday 4 June 2012 at 10:00

    Jacobson you are pathetic and have responded to you on my blog.



  19. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Monday 4 June 2012 at 12:24

    see 17



  20. The Duchess of Hackney on Monday 4 June 2012 at 14:11

    Meet you? For what? I don’t see anyone else taking you up on it. Besides I’d never get back the time spent talking to you. You aren’t that important. Just answer my question .



  21. C. on Tuesday 5 June 2012 at 09:53

    Jacobson, your comments are shameful, I am ashamed to have you as my councillor, will you do me and us all a favour and step down immediately in light of your shameful comments?



  22. C. on Tuesday 5 June 2012 at 09:55

    From your own Twitter page @abrjacobson:

    “Discrimination to anyone for any reason shouldn’t be tolerated Law breaking and ASB is a separate issue”

    You are a hypocrite and a bigot.



  23. Hackney swimmer on Tuesday 5 June 2012 at 15:30

    This seems to be blown out of proportion and rather than everyone arguing we should be demanding better management from GLL. I have had a similar experience at clissold during the women only swimming session where a different faith group had paid extra for use of one pool (the others were unfortunately closed for maintenance). This exclusive use was badly timed by GLL but not by the group paying and these private sessions importantly subsidise pools which are a huge drain on local authority purses. However the staff on duty completely miscommunicated and mismanaged confusion over taking in an 18 month old boy, which all of the women we spoke to using the pool were fine with (being their only opportunity to also take small children including infant boys in). Either way it was a GLL communication issue not a race one, and the children on both sides of this argument should get to use the pool. This is hackney and different people have different needs so lets work on solutions not creating bigger problems.



  24. The Duchess of Hackney on Tuesday 5 June 2012 at 17:07

    I have no problem with the exclusive use for certain faith groups. I don’t think it’s our place to tell them how to live their lives.

    This is multicultural multi faith Hackney and people need to understand this.

    My beef was with the cllr on a whole other matter.



  25. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Saturday 9 June 2012 at 23:56

    Message to the Hackney Citizen after ignoring my email request-Please remove items 16-22 which have nothing to do with the news item and is just an unrelated personal attack from amongs others the so called Duchess of Hackney.

    The Duchess of Hackney is a vicious racist and an antisemite as per her blog. I am all in favour of a full and frank exchange but not when you are dealing with a person who has prejudice and hides beneath a cloak of anonymity. I reckon than C and Dan are aliases for the same nasty person full of prejudice.

    I hope that the Hackney Citizen does the right thing and bans nasty racists for blogging there comments anonymously.



  26. Kris on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 12:00

    Here’s a plan: we have a public pool. It is open to any member of the public who pays the fee.

    If you want special swims so you dont need to see me in all my glory, buy your own pool.



  27. Kris on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 12:02

    As for Cllr Jacobson, if you had substance to your argument, it’s unlikely you’d feel the need to call anyone who disagrees with your view a “racist”.



  28. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 13:24

    Kris
    If you read my post I am refering to her blogsite which is full of racist abuse.



  29. kris on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 13:28

    You’ll have to point out the “racist” bits to me.

    But it’s a good tactic, calling people “racist” and then inviting them to take the conversation elsewhere.



  30. Cllr Abraham Jacobson on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 14:11

    I will not be making any further responses. It is a pity that a few anonymous racists can ruin an online debate. It would also help of contributors to a blog read the full report and facts before commenting. I will reiterate that the so called duchessofackney is a racist who stereotypes people and woe to you if you disagree with her on anything. There are quite a few people who have blocked her tweets and I hope that the Hackney Citizen takes note.



  31. The Duchess of Hackney on Sunday 10 June 2012 at 20:21

    There are quite a few people who have blocked her tweets and I hope that the Hackney Citizen takes note.

    You sound like a 5 r old complaining to his mother about his little sister taking his toy away from him.
    Get over to it Jacobson, I doubt any other councillor would react the way you have. I too will no longer comment on this thread but not before I say the only people who blocked me were, you, the so called “hackney heroine” and one of the group you went sniffing after in Homerton.



  32. T.S. swimmer on Wednesday 10 June 2015 at 08:03

    Speaking as a non-orthodox Jew. What I’m shocked about is how they phrased the letter: “To ensure segregation from the NLJYC, ” Segregation? Surely you can just say ‘To help abide by NLJYC’s rules and insure no conflict breaks out” or something at least a little softer.

    “In contrast, there is absolutely nothing respectful or tolerant in what NLYJC are demanding here: ‘I respect and tolerate you, yes, but could you just take your grubby little children out the fire exit please? I don’t want them contaminating mine.’ How lovely. I’m just sat here basking in the glow of your respect and tolerance.”
    I don’t think this is what they mean. It is more about any of the boys seeing any girls in swimming wear (including other orthodox girls).

    Please everyone read the whole story before making assumptions, and take into account religious rules and practices.



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