Concerns the ‘bad old days’ will return to Clapton as new live music venue gets go ahead
Proposed site for Hackney Arts Club: 243 Lower Clapton Road. Photograph: Google Maps
Councillors fear a “late night destination bar” and music venue in Lower Clapton approved last week by Hackney Council will spark more crime and anti-social behaviour in the area formerly known as ‘murder mile’.
Hackney Arts Club, to be situated opposite BSix College at 243 Lower Clapton Road pending planning permission, describes itself as “a contemporary arts and music space/gallery showcasing an array of arts in various styles”.
The venue had originally applied to sell alcohol and play live and recorded music until 4am, but following concerns from police and residents the council granted a licence until midnight on Friday and Saturday, and 11.30pm all other days.
In a joint statement, Councillor Ian Rathbone and Councillor Rick Muir said: “We can’t have a drinking establishment or any ‘late night destination bar’ open till four in the morning in a residential area, and only a few yards away from BSix College’s entrance.
“In the recent past we had a huge problem with late night drinking, with noise nuisance, anti-social behaviour, high crime rate and even murder. Clapton does not want this or need this ever again.”
Owner Tunde Aroun, a Hackney resident who also owns The Love Shake on Kingsland Road, rejects the idea that Hackney Arts Club will be a “destination bar”, as it only has a capacity of 50.
He said: “We were going to run classes, mainly focused on music production, training people in how to produce, arrange and perform using software. Then those students that we train could perform in a live environment.
Given the licensing restrictions, Mr Aroun is now rethinking plans to train DJs at the venue.
He added: “You try to do a good deed and you get kicked in the teeth. I’ve got another project in Shoreditch which is another prime location and is going to require quite a bit of an investment, and I could just get on with that.”
Councillor Rathbone, who is also the chair of the Clapton Pond Neighbourhood Action Group, is concerned licensing hours in Clapton are expanding, and plans to hold a public meeting on the subject.
He said: “We don’t want a Dalston here quite frankly. We need to be prepared to sort it out before it gets too much.”
Any area that wants to be a liveable, sustainable community needs more to it than flats and shops, this includes areas for socialising, and ‘god forbid’, music and arts…These councillors need to wake up and realise that one reason Clapton was so shit all those years ago was the lack of any diversity and real social outlet for the residents, especially young people. New businesses should be supported by the council, 4am during the week might be a bit late, but any evening activities will be long after the school gates have closed, so brining the location up is foolish. These councillors need to get their heads out of whatever cloud they have been smoking and promote venues for all kinds of local residents and businesses. Rathbone seems to take a unilateral approach to use of the word ‘We’ – has he done an impartial survey of what local residents would like to see in their area???
Concerns Clapton will turn into some dull monocultural middle class suburban borehole.
DJ’s are not live music, if it was live music I’d be all for it, but someone who thinks playing someone elses music is art lives in a different world to me.
Totally with La Claptone. A music and arts space/gallery sounds like a very positive thing for the area. Ridiculous worries, surely?
Er…..I think these councillors may be missing the point. This particular bit of Lower Clapton Road wasn’t dubbed ‘Murder Mile’ because a few cappucino-sipping beardies had a bit of a polite disagreement about contemporary art. The previous problems had to do with crack, Uzis, and turf wars, not arguments about whether Tarquin’s picture was hung the right way up.
This is incredibly offensive to and mistrusting of an entire area of London. How people can lose faith in an area that has had crime in the past to this extent seems like they’re just giving up. Clapton will never be able to be cultural or enjoyable, sorry. This is an attack on the arts and an excuse for poor crime prevention enforcement.
I doubt somewhere that describes itself as “a contemporary arts and music space/gallery showcasing an array of arts in various styles” is going to see a mass influx of yardies any time soon.
Agree with comments posted – councillor should be representing the community not pushing his own views. A cultural space would be a great addition to this area. He says ‘we can’t have a drinking establishment…’ – has he not noticed Clapton Hart a few doors down??? Look forward to the public meeting.
Surprise, surprise – the opponents of the venue are playing the ‘residential area’ card! Now, where have we seen that done before…?
And this comment from Councillor Rathbone is priceless: “We don’t want a Dalston here quite frankly. We need to be prepared to sort it out before it gets too much.” – the people of Clapton can’t be allowed too much excitement, or they might get out of hand!
There needs to be a proper investigation into who exactly is behind the rather shadowy campaign to curb Hackney’s nighttime economy, and what precisely their motives and justification for it are…
re the comment by TheGreatSmellOfBrute, surely the motives behind the curbing on Hackney’s nighttime economy are to ensure that residents, of all ages, can get some peace at night so that they can sleep, and perhaps so that in the mornings they don’t have to walk through piss and vomit of inconsiderate hipsters? There are young families and older people who live on Clapton too, not just loud screeching hipsters who couldn’t care less where they are at 2am and therefore whose streets they vomit on. Excitement comes in many forms. The curbs are there to readress the balance: Dalston has got a completely out of control nighttime economy, and we all know this fact, don’t we? Those who live around Broadway Market have suffered for years too from noise from screeching revellers who seem to believe that it’s OK to scream in the streets in the early morning because it’s all part of the ‘excitement’ of living in London….what weird ways of thinking some people have.
Bille8, it’s interesting that you’ve felt it necessary to set up a false binary between ‘respectable’ residents who want an early night on the one hand, and pissing, vomiting hipsters (because we know that there are no other kinds, right?) on the other – nice line in stereotyping you have there! Are you trying to say that no one who actually lives in Clapton would enjoy the prospect of being able to stay out a little later than 11:30 pm (or 12:00 am at weekends) without having to take a night bus home? Or that it isn’t possible for a venue to stay open after midnight at weekends without social mayhem ensuing?
“The curbs are there to readress [sic] the balance”
No, they’re not, as anyone who’s witnessed the imflammatory rhetoric of the anti-nightlife lobby could tell you; the curbs are all about one particular clique (drawn largely from newcomers to Hackney) imposing their preferences on everyone else who lives there. There’s been no sense of proportion or respect for pluralism in this ongoing discussion, let alone any prospect for compromise and accommodation.
“[W]hat weird ways of thinking some people have.”
I suppose that my views must seem very weird to anyone who expresses themselves entirely in trite cliches…I’m only grateful that you didn’t resort to the ‘family area’ meme! 😛
re TheGreatSmelletc… I don’t understand some of your language. What’s a “false binary”? What’s a “‘family area’ meme”? Why can’t you write like a real person does?
Billie8- is you a bit fik bruv?
Bille8, you need to educate yourself before shooting your mouth off (and yourself in the foot) on a public forum. If you don’t understand the terms like ‘false binary’ and ‘family area meme’, it’s no wonder that you’re only capable of presenting the conflicts of interests surrounding Hackney’s nighttime economy in terms of childish cliches and stereotypes.
As for the meaningless and risible term ‘real people’ (does that make me a cardboard cut-out then?), it reminds of something Chris Rock said in one of his stand-up routines:
“Keepin’ it real…real DUMB!”
😛
GreatSmelletc… I could have a guess at the “false binary” thingy but the “‘family area’ meme” reference has got me genuinely stumped. I was rather looking forward to you educating me yourself, rather than finding myself at the sharp end of a barrage of derision (what an awful use of metaphor: I apologise profusely in advance of more verbal abuse.) (New thought: perhaps that is not a metaphor; perhaps it is a “meme”.) (Even newer thought: perhaps a “meme” is not a real thing at all but really only what over-educated people with a lot of unused time on their hands, and a very impressive thesaurus in their hands, use in their comments on rarely-read blogs in order to make them feel that they are correct in their views because they use words and phrases which have the intention of making other people feel that they are wrong…?) (Newest new thought: or am I stereotyping you too much?)
What is a “‘family area’ meme”? Honestly… I’d like to know… Honestly, Guv, eddicate me, eh?
“I could have a guess at the ‘false binary’ thingy…”
Well, given that I’ve spelled out the nature of it for you already, that would hardly be difficult, would it?
“but the ‘family area’ meme reference has got me genuinely stumped.”
The anti-nightlife campaigners love to churn out a lot of mawkish nonsense about ‘residential areas’ containing young families, as though that in itself was a cut-and-dried case against the nighttime economy. Do you not pay attention to local news, or only to those stories which appear to support your opinions?
“I was rather looking forward to you educating me yourself…”
Such intellectual laziness! I’m assuming that you’re a grown-up…
“…rather than finding myself at the sharp end of a barrage of derision”
Some people have always got to play the victim, rather than taking responsibility for their own ignorance, eh? Maybe you ought to examine the patent absurdity of your own expressed views.
“Honestly, Guv, eddicate me”
I’m not quite sure how I could explain a complex situation which contains real human beings, with sets of interests which sometimes clash and sometimes coincide, in terms of your toytown model of ‘goodies’ (salt-of-the-earth residents, who like an early night) and ‘baddies’ (pissing, vomiting hipsters who love to shout at 2:00 am, and presumably don’t live anywhere).
Bille8, you said earlier that “what weird ways of thinking some people have”; perhaps it’s the concept of THINKING itself that you find weird! 😛
GreatSmelletc…you’re no fun…bored now…not excited at all.
“bored now”
Well, I guess you must have reached and breached the limits of your reasoning powers and social skills then, Bille8. Thank you so much for contributing your informed opinions to this discussion – the good people of Clapton clearly have such a lot to learn from you! 😛
GreatSmelletc… Clapton could learn a lot from both of our own views, surely? As well as their own views, of course. But, as I mentioned before: not excited any more.
Bille8, someone with more patience than myself needs to teach you the differences between an informed and an uninfomed opinion, as well as giving you a solid grounding in the art of sarcasm.
Oh, and I’m not the slightest bit interested in entertaining you free of charge, particularly as you seem to resent other people having access to entertainment which they’re prepared to pay for. Life isn’t all about YOU all the time; if you’re bored, perhaps you should stop being so boring!
GreatSmelletc… I seem to have touched a nerve, or am I wrong?
Bille8, you’re wrong, and as Murder Nile put it earlier, “is you a bit fik bruv”?
If you’re in a hole, the thing to do is STOP DIGGING!
GreatSmelletc… OK luv, but you say goodbye first, eh?
If the Councillor thinks a venue for the Arts and Music that holds a capacity of 50 with only a midnight license is going to be a problem then I guess that’s why he’s not concerned with dealing with the massive lack of education locally that leads to a lot of residents letting their dogs poo on the streets, people blatantly littering and the non enforcement of the various signs indicating to fines for such indecent goings on. Before you can dirty the neighbourhood you need to clean it the heck up first, literally.
Greatsmellof….
Billie8 has a point about the shouting, (crying!), peeing and vomit. As a resident of many years it is a problem …even now.
Owner/renting..we now pay a fortune to live here since ‘gentrification’ was forced on us mere plebs. We deserve peace at night.
Ummm..what is a false binary??? #stumped
I prefered the yardies to people using terms like false binary…it’s the job of the young to be stupid and smug, but a lot of the hipster types seem to be best part of 30 and still like that,
….and I prefer the term YUNTS (young useless narcissistic trustfunders) to hipster!
“I prefered the yardies to people using terms like false binary”
There’s nothing stupid about the term ‘false binary’; on the contrary, it’s you who’s too dim to understand its use in this context!
“I prefer the term YUNTS (young useless narcissistic trustfunders) to hipster!”
Yeah, because it makes it even easier for you to dismiss them as human beings in your limited imagination, doesn’t it?
If you’re not bright enough to do anything better than peddle cartoonish stereotypes, why do you imagine that you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?
“Billie8 has a point about the shouting, (crying!), peeing and vomit.”
That alone doesn’t constitute a sound argument in a licensing dispute, does it? Funny how many can’t beyond the facile “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” rhetoric…
It would be great to have a small bar serving drinks until late that I can walk home from. The problems experienced with Chimes the old nightclub will not re-occur that was a different sort of club entirely.
This location is ideal, it is not a quiet residential area and providing music does not drown out the noise of the traffic on the adjacent roundabout how can this be a problem?
I would add that the discussions before this are not constructive to debate.
I fully support the views of La Claptone and some selected late night opening would be a benefit to our ever changing community.
Clapton Hacker
Resident of Clapton for 16 years
Retired
Clapton Hacker, thanks for being a voice of reason in this discussion, and presenting the pertinent facts of the matter.
All a bit suspect all this.
I have lived in Hackney for over 40 years I remember when there was a pub on the corner of every street.
There were two pubs in the area that are now closed one has reopened so there should be room for one more.
I wonder if the proprietors name was William instead of Tundi the Councils response would have been more supportive.
Dear TheGreatSmellOf Brute and Billie8, I am brand new to Hackney and this forum has been very informative. I have just moved to London for the first time and I have landed right on Broadway Market in a hipster loft flat that is close to the Off Broadway bar. (I am 45 so I may be too old to qualify me as a hipster). I noticed that the bar has posted in their window an application to stay open until 2am, and to serve alcohol until 1:30 am. Representations against it must be made by 31/03/2015. I have posted it in its entirety at the end of my comments.
This fits right in with the discussion you were having.
I agree with you both regarding this issue, both of your arguments are sound. I do think the idea of a neighborhood bar to get a late night drink is a good thing. I must say, however, that as someone brand new to London (to England, really), my first impressions would tilt me toward Billie8’s reasoning. The breadth of disruption created by the consumption of alcohol in London is actually quite shocking to me as an American. I was not prepared for it. It is one of the things that has surprised me about London. And I moved from the heart of a night-life neighborhood on a busy city street in the U.S. The fact is that Londoners party very hard.
Right now, the Off Broadway stays open until midnight during the week and I believe the weekend as well. From where I live, within 50 feet of the Off Broadway bar, this does in fact translate to a large crowd of bar drinkers who spend a lot of their time outside smoking. (And it is not even remotely warm yet.) Together, they are very loud. There is the occasional screaming between a few people, a few screeches, and yes, vomit in the street outside my door (in fairness, this has been only once since I moved here).
As a result, though I do agree with you TheGreatSmellOfBrute, it is a nice thing to have a late night bar and while adults should be able to make a decision to go to one, it seems to me that this is not the case, and it will amplify the disruption that already occurs. People will make this particular corner a destination for the midnight to 3 am crowd. Let’s be honest, if the bar stays open until 2 am, that really means talking and smokers for another hour outside. If the patrons were able to hang out outside and have normal conversation, then I would have no problem with it. There will, however, be screams and screeches. How much of this could the business owner control? It would not be in their interest to control it.
I chose to live right on Broadway Market, and the combination of the market itself, restaurants, city life, parks, beautiful neighborhoods to explore… all appeal to me. I am an urban dweller. I know that I signed up for city noise… the Cat and Mutton is close-by as well. But the fact is that it is still a neighborhood street with lots of people living on it that will be impacted by this kind of late night change. It will happen.
I am not one to decide these things on behalf of others, and I am brand new around here and do not have the time vested as most do. And if the majority around thinks it is a good idea and an economic perk to the neighborhood, then it should go ahead. But I have to be honest about one of my strong first impressions here… that with the increased late night consumption of alcohol, what will occur is that people will flock to this particular corner to the one establishment in the immediate vicinity still open, and as the night goes on, people will drink more, they will go outside to smoke more. There will be many so they will have to talk louder to be heard. Let’s be honest, the corner of Dericote Street and Broadway Market will become an outdoor patio with people smoking until 3 am. And yes, there will be vomit.
New here, I am not really OK with that. Are others on the block? If you are not, there really is very little time to make a representation.
Furthermore, I do not intend to discredit the quality and respectability of this particular venue… I have had drinks there, it is a neighborhood classic and the live music is excellent. I have learned that the owner Mr Selby has been a well-known and respected business operator here for decades. I wonder why the request to change it? And I wonder if the neighborhood is ready for the change? Has there been any additional discussion about what will happen?
The Market stalls start setting up around 6:30-7:00 am, so this means that for residents on the street, it will be 21 hours of constant noise, motion of some kind. One AM is very different than Three AM. I hope there aren’t any others living here who might have to work Saturday morning… like me.
Could you recommend a place to buy a noise machine? Bethnal Green Road?
-CT Yank
(Full wording below… If you don’t mind, I am going to copy the whole comment posted in the window, because the wording is different from the details available at http://www.hackney.gov.uk/licensing –
for example, it says that representations must be made earlier – by 31/03/2015.
Anyone know which date is correct?)
“Notice of application to vary a premises license
Notice is given that Off Broadway Ltd has applied to Hackney Council to vary a premise licence at 63-65 Broadway Market, London E84PH. In order to make the following variation to the license: Friday & Saturday 9:00 to 2:00. To extend the selling of alcohol to Friday & Saturday 10:00 to 1:30.”
The licence register listing details of the variation is held at the Licensing Service, Hackney Service Center, 1 Hillman Street, London E8 1DY (Tel No. 020 8356 4970). Details are also available on-line at http://www.hackney.gov.uk/licensing
Any representations against this application must be made in writing and received by the Licensing Service at the above address, by no later than the 3/4/2015
Residents and businesses in the vicinity of the premises, or their representatives, may make representations on licensing objectives grounds only, i.e. the prevention of crime and disorder, the prevention of public nuisance, public safety and the protection of children from harm. Copies of all representations will be sent to the applicant.
It is an offense, liable on conviction to a fine up to £5000 for an applicant to knowingly or recklessly make a false statement in connection with the application.”
I feel bad responding to such a long email with such a simple point. But do newcomers who move into an area with an established nightlife have the right to then demand that area changes?
Response to Kate: Using the quote “The only constant in life is change,” I’m thinking when the situation involves a number of negatives then surely the answer is to make changes.
It seems there’s a general selfcenteredness in society today and little thought for the welfare of others.
No consideration for families, the elderly or young children that need a good night’s sleep and for those that work… and just want to be able to get some rest after a long day..
If you want to party all night then go to the city or somewhere else … drinking and clubbing in a residential area should be restricted to Friday and Saturday nights late night … in the week has to be shut down earlier to show consideration to others…
Lived in Hackney all my life…
Hackney is a diverse multi culturally area and should reflect the needs of all residents…
Islington on the weekend is full of people that drink take drugs and cause a lot of problems and Dalston is going that way it’s been pushed up from Shoreditch we don’t need it anyway else in the area it’s enough. ..
Go drink in Shoreditch …
Or get the fuck out and go get pissed and feel sick on your own door step while your children have to watch adults make fools of themselves …
Well said Anna!