The shooting at London Fields: the ‘kidz’ are here!

London Fields yesterday, the day after the shooting took place

London Fields yesterday, the day after the shooting took place

As the East End becomes gentrified and ‘trendified’, the parks are cleaner, the shops more ’boutiquey’ and the people younger. London Fields, affectionately known to locals as the catwalk, is a particular weekend treat. Every sunny weekend BBQs, bikes with baskets of flowers, babies and beer flourish in the green and tree lined spaces. Complemented by the lido and Broadway Market, London Fields has fast established itself as the place to be.

The families, the fashionistas and the fun that create the festival atmosphere in London Fields was ripped apart when a gang of teenagers chose to shoot each other at half past three on a blistering hot Saturday afternoon.

Hackney is home to some of the worst housing in the country. Slums. Families squashed into tiny houses, damp riddled, stacked up like criminals in estates full of drugs, intimidation and fear. The women try to keep clean, the fathers try to stay clean and the kids run around like toy soldiers marking their small bits of territory with drugs, guns and violence. They put the edge in Hackney.

And there we all are: the gentrified middle classes with our picnics, summer hats, beer and buggies. On display, flashing our comfortable, easy-going weekend lifestyles for all to see.

So the ‘kidz’ decided to remind us THEY ARE HERE!  And who can blame them. Their parents are being defeated by generation upon generation of poverty, escaping from war zones, beaten by the system, drowning in smack, crack, alcohol, junk food and trash tv. But their children have still got the anger of untapped potential burning in their hearts. They protect what they do have, and what they have is territory. Where are the pubs, clubs, cafes, gyms and park equivalents for them?

We expect them to stay hidden, keep their ugly poverty away from out rose-tinted Ray Bans. It’s time we woke up, heard their cries for attention, listened to their anger and gave them something of their own. Hackney is taking a deep breath. This could be one long, hot summer, folks.

Note: the views expressed in comment pieces are not necessarily those of the Hackney Citizen.

Related stories:

Somebody got shot: thoughts on the London Fields shooting

Mayor criticised over response to London Fields shooting

The ‘culture clash’ at east London Fields (BBC news London, Saturday 29 May 2010)

London Fields shooting likened to Los Angeles gang wars (Guardian, Friday 28 May 2010)

Letter: There is no ghetto of the rich in Hackney (Guardian, Tuesday 1 June 2010)

105 Comments

  1. Pedro on Monday 24 May 2010 at 12:33

    Yes, let’s listen to the Kidz, but please let us do it before they shoot us all. I find the article has a point but I cannot sympathize with the indulgent tone.



  2. John Eden on Monday 24 May 2010 at 12:49

    “The women try to keep clean, the fathers try to stay clean and the kids run around like toy soldiers marking their small bits of territory with drugs, guns and violence. They put the edge in Hackney.”

    Is this sensationalist stereotyping bullshit about people who happen to live on estates helpful?



  3. A. D. on Monday 24 May 2010 at 12:49

    Some of us grew up in Hackney and chose not be like those “Kidz.” In fact, most of us who grew up here did not end up in gangs who think it’s ok to carry guns and shoot at each other without a single thought about those who will be affected.

    Yes, there are clear problems of poverty, deprivation and violence in Hackney but it’s no good to say “who can blame them?” The last line almost justifies a period of impending violence. Also, it seems cool to look down on the “yuppies” and “yo-pros” who have “invaded” Hackney. All I can say is that after growing up here with a constant fear of violence, I’m happy to see some of the changes that have occurred.

    No, we mustn’t ignore the rising problems of the rich/poor divide here but neither should we begin to justify the actions of a few troubled, but ultimately selfish individuals.



  4. John on Monday 24 May 2010 at 12:53

    Agreed with Pedro, plus I believe the current changes in the neighbourhood are positive in the short and long term for all, weather they are new or earlier residents. What it is for sure is that NO MATTER WHAT the gangs and guns must be controlled and stopped by the police.



  5. JW on Monday 24 May 2010 at 12:55

    Sorry but this is just typical left posturing.

    I am only too aware of the obscene contrast between Saturdays in Broadway Market many peddling overpriced food to tourists and other gullible people, whilst they effectively elbow out anybody local who has to make do with shopping in Lidls and Iceland.

    And whilst the yummy mummies colonise the green areas of London Fields and burn the grass with their non ecological temporary barbeques its worth pointing out that both London Fields and the Lido were saved by local people.

    However they are not the beneficiaries of this work. For instance although there is a scheme of free swimming for OAPs in LB Hackney the Lido is excluded from it. This means that even if you as an older person who spent the past few decades saving the Lido you cant now use it.

    And the LFUG has been trying for years to get sports facilities restored to the park but are being obstructed by the incomes who want it for their exclusive use ie just weekends. The arrogant disregard for the fact that is the MUGA was installed at least some local people, whether on school holidays or out of work would have somewhere to excercise and interact as teams rather than gangs.

    The problem with specifically young male violence is one that the past Labour Government has done nothing to address, and strange as it may seem local people have increased their vote to their Labour MP so sometimes it is hard not to think that people would prefer to deal with what they want to be (upwardly mobile) rather than address current problems which means in effect accepting that you are at the bottom of the dung heap.

    For instance another local initiative to give young people off the street and entertained was running in the local hall of Brougham Road then guess what because it is sucessfull Hackney Town hall moves in, and despite putting in more money than they would allow local people to have to run it themselves, they cant even keep it open on the days promised. So in the end due to poor attendance this too is now no longer available.

    Not unlike of course forcing the Ann Taylor Centre to become a Sure Start Centre ie yet again Labour saying you the people aren’t competent to judge and run your own resources, we need to tell you what you should have and if you don’t accept it you don’t get the money. Yet another local facility co-opted by the state.

    If things go on the way they are we are going to find the coalition will turn out to be more “liberal” than any Labour administration.

    I suggest a little less standing on your soap box and coming up with facile comments about gun fights representing “kidz” but trying to work with local young people and find out what they would really like.

    And that doesn’t mean feeding into the media lead negative role models of rap machismo and the objectificaiton of young women.

    Sometimes it is hard not the think that the male left isn’t in fact happy that Labour lost as it means they can default to their usual role of shouting and barracking, but never coming up with any real alternatives.



  6. Mitch on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:03

    What a weird piece. Morag McKeown appears to be some sort of white middle class apologist, wringing her hands about not having been born to the ghetto. The piece seems to be suggesting that law abiding average-Joe Londoners (with their oh-so ostentatious buggies and picnics) shouldn’t be surprised when there’s a shoot-out on a summer’s day in a park and that the streets really belong to the gun toting criminal classes. This isn’t The Wire, you know.

    As to your question “And who can blame them?”, the rather obvious answer is all the family and friends of the man who went to the park and ended up in critical condition in a hospital.



  7. ML on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:19

    What a load of drivel. You should be ashamed at the insulting tone of this article and the fact that you can pass it off as apparent impartial journalism.

    The fact is that anyone can head to the park and enjoy a cheap beer in the sun. And everyone should have the right to do so without the fear of being shot.

    If you are imparting that these so-called ‘kidz’ are all criminals then you should have a serious rethink. And those who do brandish the guns and drugs should be dealt with in the proper manner.



  8. Anonymous on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:20

    What nonsense. The shooting occurred on my street. The gangs are not trying to reclaim space for themselves. They are small time organised criminals trying to get into the big time. They have absolutely no regard for anybody who is not their supplier, their client or their enemy.

    Many of them are no longer local. They come out at the start of every summer, they hang menacingly around the end of Shrubland Road until one of them does something idiotic – like Saturday’s shooting – then they disappear into remand centres and prison.

    Most of the local kids are delightful, naughty, energetic kids, as you would expect them to be. They play football and ride their bikes in the street and would make full use of London Field if their mothers would let them. But they can’t because The London Fields Boys think they own it. The sooner they are arrested and shipped out the better.



  9. David S on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:23

    Hi there,

    I live by LF. I know where all the trouble makers are and where drug dealing is happening.

    How complicated would be to get police to patrol the same spot?

    We can go on about politics and social issues, I was 50m away from the shooting and it wasn’t funny.

    Guns is a real issue around here not social housing.



  10. YA on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:25

    I am trying to work out what exactly is wrong with gentrification. While on the subject what exactly is the concept of a ghetto or the resultant poverty?

    If we truly want to understand poverty then we are in the wrong country; take a trip to parts of West Africa. On the subject of housing why are we not truthful to ourselves…the new builds are really no better off; albeit the fact that they are new…the spaces are still crammed and in twenty /thirty years we will be going through the same hellish vision we are today with tower blocks…it is all about money and the underlying corruption which I am positive key figures in the local administration play an active part in.

    Solution: Find these fools, arrest them, escalate them through the courts, be severe, give them life without the possibility of seeing sunshine…what ever you do don’t blame poverty. I pay a fortune in income tax, coucil tax, mortgage fees, child care, parking (in front of my flat)…at the end of the month I have nothing. Maybe I should pick up a gun considering I am the one that is robbed blind.



  11. D McKeown on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:27

    This is the sort of commentary a sixteen year old privileged kid would come up with.

    Next you’re going to say it was the guy’s fault he got shot. Flaunting his middle classed BBQ.

    Grow up.



  12. Ronan on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:28

    It is worrying. tho as long as we have courageous bloggers such as yourself willing to expend time and kilobytes we might just be okay.



  13. Steven on Monday 24 May 2010 at 13:44

    Your discourse is laughable, you should really visit the London Fields and stop spewing detritus.



  14. W on Monday 24 May 2010 at 14:22

    This article is ridiculous.

    You want me to feel guilty that my parents (immigrants brought up in Tottenham) worked hard so I could go to university? Or maybe I should feel guilty because I studied hard and can now just about afford to rent an ex-council flat and pay off the debt I got at uni? There is no excuse for gang violence.



  15. lord T on Monday 24 May 2010 at 14:25

    Who can blame them?? what idiot wrote this?

    would you say that if it was a member of your family who is shot in the crossfire between a bunch of ferrel fools.

    I can blame them for carrying and using firearms.

    The poverty in Hackney is hardly 3rd world levels.

    No excuse for this kind of behaviour whatsoever



  16. BarmyArmy on Monday 24 May 2010 at 14:26

    This has nothing to do with a class war on gentrification. The bullet was fired due to a lack of education, role models and morals.



  17. RJB on Monday 24 May 2010 at 14:29

    Thank you so much for this helpful insight.

    I shall now go home and make sure I look as though I am below the poverty line. It’ll be like a invisible bullet proof vest.

    This article is an insult to the extremely unlucky guy that has been injured.

    You should be ashamed.



  18. GouldTerrorist on Monday 24 May 2010 at 15:05

    This comment has been deleted following a complaint



  19. Guy on Monday 24 May 2010 at 15:13

    Just remember, there’s only a few dozen of “the kidz” and thousands of us. Don’t be intimidated. It’s not their turf, it’s a park to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to be there.

    One of the worst pieces of journalism I’ve ever read.
    I think Morag should be fired for writing this crap glorifying violence.



  20. Colin2000 on Monday 24 May 2010 at 15:15

    Agree with LordT No excuse for this kind of behaviour whatsoever.

    A question to ask would be the link between the drug buying public and the violence on our streets but this article misses that point.

    Don’t blame law abiding friends and families for enjoying the sunshine in a borough they have lived and supported for years.



  21. Hackney Resident on Monday 24 May 2010 at 15:16

    There is NO excuse whatsoever for criminal activity. These “Kidz” and gangsters are disgusting, degenerate and savage scum who CHOSE their lifestyle. They are usually school drop-outs, intellectually backward low achievers and some have mental health issues but that’s no excuse for their behaviour. They should be locked up in a secure institution. Why do they have the right to ruin our society?

    I am sick of apologists and do-gooders who make excuses for them. […]



  22. R Jones on Monday 24 May 2010 at 15:43

    One does have to ask a question or two in respect of the elephant in the room: why is it that it is black kids who seem most likely to be involved in this sort of violence given that “poverty” in London spans many racial divides? And shouldn’t there be a response be in respect of immigration and asylum policy?



  23. dMartin on Monday 24 May 2010 at 16:04

    Pathetic and patronising excuse-making for a bunch of dickheads that think they live in Grand Theft Auto world.

    As for nothing for these kids to do – there are more facilities and things to do for kids in central London than in the vast majority of small towns and villages in Britain.



  24. local on Monday 24 May 2010 at 16:41

    why was my comment deleted?



  25. ML on Monday 24 May 2010 at 16:49

    Also, in case this awful excuse for a ‘journalist’ had failed to research and realise, the ‘kidz’ (as I cringingly cite from this piece) had the equal opportunity of attending the festival that day. There was cookery advice, music, arts, a lido not two minutes away and plenty of other things to do. There was even a cricket match going on that day.

    I am a journalist myself and would expect to be given a warning or even let go for such an ill-conceived, inappropriate article. Yes you have the right of opinion, but when you fail your journalistic duty to paint an accurate picture beyond this pathetic, short-sighted overview you should ultimately reconsider and apologise for it. Not least to your readers, but mostly to the poor guy who was innocently shot.

    We all need to rise up against such crime. Not disregard it as petty or remotely excuseable.



  26. DM on Monday 24 May 2010 at 16:54

    Ha Ha Ha, I think this is one of the stupidest, knee jerking editorial pieces I’ve read outside of the Daily Mail. Last time I checked London Fields wasn’t in Belfast circa 1989! To say these kids are shooting at each other to remind middle class people of their existence is laughable at best, utterly, utterly ignorant at worst.

    These people aren’t class warriors or the deprived desperately trying to be heard, they’re bored, uneducated petty criminals who live like parasites in the communities that harbour them, and as such should feel the full force of the law.

    PS: Don’t use the word ‘Kidz’, it makes you sound like some out of touch MP…



  27. Aaron on Monday 24 May 2010 at 17:39

    I hope the student twat who wrote this execrable piece of drivel gets an opportunity to praise the “kidz” for their excellent actions when one pulls a gun on him in the near future.

    This is without question the most pig-ignorant, ill-formed, moronic piece of writing I have ever had the misfortune to read. Surely no-one is actually stupid enough to think what the author says is correct?



  28. Matt on Monday 24 May 2010 at 18:07

    Shame there’s not an ‘Offensive comment?’ button on the main article. It’s a disgrace



  29. Tobe on Monday 24 May 2010 at 18:08

    This article is just embarrassing. The Hackney Citizen should have had more sense than to allow it to be posted.



  30. Dave on Monday 24 May 2010 at 18:35

    This article is awful; it’s an affront to professional journalism.



  31. karen on Monday 24 May 2010 at 18:46

    Not all people on housing estates are on drugs and leave their kids to do their own thing. Many use London Fields i.e. on Saturday local youth groups took full advantage of the events on offer – these young people live on the same estates menationed in the report but choose to avoid gangs. Local (estate based) responsible parents take their children their all the time. We are not all unemployed, on drugs, ignoring what are children are getting up to. For these gangs its not about povery its about making money without having to work for it – many of us do work and do raise our children correctly – (estate based hard working Mother)



  32. Sarah on Monday 24 May 2010 at 19:07

    The question of blame aside, the real issue raised by this post is why there are so many more of these sorts of incidents in Hackney than there are in, say, Richmond. Very few of the many comments here have addressed this question head-on.

    Certainly it is bound to have a lot to do with deprivation, though probably as much to do with the extraordinarily high levels of wealth inequality in the borough, and in the London Fields area in particular. The fact that Hackney has the worst primary schools in the country is also undoubtedly a factor.



  33. jonathan on Monday 24 May 2010 at 20:33

    this is absolute tosh. the author’s clearly a fool!



  34. metalbasher on Monday 24 May 2010 at 20:41

    “And there we all are: the gentrified middle classes with our picnics, summer hats, beer and buggies. On display, flashing our comfortable, easy-going weekend lifestyles for all to see.”
    We’ll that just about sums me up then -but please don’t accuse me of being “middle class”
    I work hard (manually ) for my money and if I decide I want to sit in the park and have a beer with my partner, kids, and some mates is that”flashing my comfortable lifestyle”?
    Get a life.



  35. Cassland on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:13

    JW you are a breath of fresh air in Hackney. I never cease to be amazed how Labour keep getting voted in all the time in the borough they fail again and again. But who votes for them? Yep the Champagne Socialists who think the know what’s best for their poor comrades whilst putting up Labour posters in the windows of their million pound London houses.

    Brougham Road and the Ann Tayler Centre are just the tip of the iceberg. It is just typical of the media type trendy lefties living in Hackney, usually whingeing not in my backyard selfish me me me baby boomers, who consistently oppose anything that will benefit the people of Hackney. The young and old surrounding London Fields cannot afford to use the Lido and are crying out for sporting facilities such as five a side pitches, basketball courts or fitness apparatus to channel their energy. Another fine example is some horrible nimbies overlooking Clissold Park asking if they could remove the One O’Clock Club because it spoils their view!!!! Or how about the Snobs trying to stop a Nando’s opening up on SN Church Street?

    It is endless.



  36. Kris on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:14

    What is worse than this article’s ignorant writer is knowing it had to go through some sort of editing process, so not one but at least two people at the Hackney Citizen thought it was passable.



  37. Tanker on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:21

    And a month ago a young innocent girl was shot dead on Hoxton Street in a burger joint. She was probably “flashing (her) our comfortable, easy-going weekend lifestyles for all to see”.
    What a disgraceful article!



  38. Rob on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:31

    I can’t remember reading anything quite so weak. Is this the standard of journalism at the Citizen? I’m not surprised there is no byline. Sitting in the park on your day off in your second hand clothes with a tesco BBQ is not exactly a provocative display of wealth. How much do guns cost these days?



  39. bratty on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:50

    sack whoever wrote this – gentrification and upwardly mobile people = more opportunities the shootings are a result of a small group of people that are ruining an area that is on the up for most of the people that live there – when i lived in dalston there was a community feeling that you didnt get from other areas of london and i lived in west in shepherds bush and spent time staying in the south with mates both were much more this wider problem needs to be addressed now and seriously there needs to be some sort of military service or compulsory social service for young men – all young men! ive lived in South Korea and now live in Austria and both countries do not suffer from the same bubbling over of serious gun crime violence that is evident i – albeit they also have pretty stricter immigration laws. In Austria you can choose between doing health care or the army but you cant escape it – so yeah bring back subscription ! I hope the criminals are caught and brought to a heavy sentence – they wernt making a statement they committed a serious crime and whoever wrote this i hope they are hurting now after reading back what people are saying about this tosh though they wont be near as upset as the family of the man who was shot – Morag you utter twonk.



  40. Kaptain Krunch on Monday 24 May 2010 at 21:58

    Drivel.



  41. bratty on Monday 24 May 2010 at 22:02

    whoops ! this should read “when I lived in dalston there was a community feeling that you didnt get from other areas of London and i lived in west london in shepherds bush and spent time staying in the south with mates both were much more threatening



  42. Carl on Monday 24 May 2010 at 22:09

    I find this article extremely provoking. Have you ever thought of individual responsibility? Whose ultimate responsibility is it that “kids” shot an innocent victim? Obviously, society has a part to play. Which the writer doesn’t communicate very well at all. However, the main responsibility is their own and their parents. If one can’t support kids nor bring them up in a decent manner one shouldn’t have them. Very simple. Of course, education and youth centres could be improved for the benefit of society as a whole. But to state that as a main factor for a shooting taking place is outrageous. How about individual responsibility for the greater good of the community?



  43. Haggerston local on Monday 24 May 2010 at 22:24

    Some of the criticisms on what is clearly a personal comment piece are a little harsh. The tone might be excited but it is quite an event that occurred: it is one thing for an act of violence to happen in a dark street corner, but quite another for it to happen in broad daylight in a packed park. It does feel a little bit like a shock reminder of what’s really going on around us. A turf war happening invisibly under some of our noses?

    This Beeb piece spells it out a little more clearer to the benefit of those like me, who didn’t initially appreciate the significance of ‘territory’, being an asset to those who deal drugs:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7591375.stm

    A (positive) thought: as many local people seem to know what’s really going on, why don’t the police use this internet technology to their advantage: making it harder for people to get hold of things like hard drugs and guns; if there’s more chance of getting into serious trouble, perhaps some of the teenagers might opt for sport or something healthier instead..



  44. Haggerston local on Monday 24 May 2010 at 22:33

    @Carl, children have to be brought up within an environment; when parents are perhaps working during the day can they really be wholly responsible for their teenagers – would you dare to try to bring up children in Hackney in a “decent manner”; isn’t there an unavoidable chance that they might fall in with the ‘wrong crowd’?

    the environment (of Hackney) is a shared responsibility of all of us..



  45. Michael on Monday 24 May 2010 at 23:06

    This is about the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read. I lived the first 30 years of my life in Brooklyn, NY and we saw the worst of it in the 80’s and early 90’s. Despite all the shootings, gang violence, etc never had anyone had the audacity to open fire in crowded park. The guilty youth here seem to be remorseless with no concept of consequence and no fear of the law, but I suppose that’s easy when the police are simply glorified traffic wardens.

    This isn’t about resentment for “privileged” white folks. This is all about lack of education and role models and ultimately falls on poor parenting. Of course kids are going to turn to dealing and gang-banging…it’s what they see on tv and in the cinema.

    If things are really going to change, it’s going to require hard decisions and controversial police tactics (which is why dictator-mayor Rudy Guiliani was both revered and loathed at the time). They could start by putting some actual police on actual pavement — something I rarely see.



  46. JonJo on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 00:10

    This article is shamelessly moronic and excruciatingly Nathan Barley. I know for a fact that the writer ‘Morag’ is the pen name of a picnic-loving, mobile phone-flashing male fashion ‘stylist’, so no surprises really, eh folks? Not even got the guts to put his name to it! I suggest you take the advice of the good people on here sir and get a grip, or perhaps you should stick to hanging scarves round necks for a living and dressing up ‘the kidz’ (because your writing is pretty shocking, something like ‘tree lined’ should clearly be hyphenated, you bloody Hackney Citizen cowboy).

    Best Bit? ‘The women try to keep clean, the men try to stay clean’ WTF? Two questions: (1) What’s the gender differentiation supposed to signify ie: what’s the big difference between ‘keep’ and ‘stay’? (2) Soap shortage?! Or are you insinuating everyone on an estate is on smack?

    This article is shit on a stick.

    PS: This is actually the first place I have heard it reported that these teenagers shot each other – ‘chose to shoot each other’ – do you mean ‘at each other’ or are you just being a maverick with the facts?



  47. LoveInHackney on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 02:42

    I thought this was a great article.

    The author has obviously touched on a few uncomfortable points. I live on another edge of Hackney and find it astonishing how the cries for attention from the estates are ignored. The estates are full of drugs, intimidation and fear.

    I’m sure the police will say that they are doing all they can to stop this escalating game of toy soldiers and if they’re honest , they’ll sadly report that it’s getting worse.

    There is no intervention. Shooting, stabbing, I hear about another one every other day.

    What a refreshing and strangely controversial article.



  48. Tower Hamlets Resident on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 08:35

    Unbelievable, really unbelievable. Grow up Morag. This is the worst piece of drivel I’ve ever had the misfortune to read.



  49. Em on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 09:07

    The attitude expressed in this article is less than helpful for the children/youths concerned. I teach in an exclusion centre in Hackney and have lived here for the past 10 years. I have never encountered any kind of resentment towards my middle class background. True, many of these children come from broken homes but the statement that ‘The women try to keep clean, the fathers try to stay clean and the kids run around like toy soldiers marking their small bits of territory with drugs, guns and violence. They put the edge in Hackney.’ is absurd. What a gross generalisation.

    I have encountered issues stemming from the postcode ‘wars’ and struggles for territory many times but these are between a real minority of the children that have been raised in this area. Children who have been involved in gang violence have expressed to me very honestly that the main reason they behave in this way is to gain ‘respect’ from their friends. It is in no way to remind the middle classes that ‘they are here’ and it is from a rather self centred perspective that anyone would think so.

    There are many people who are listening to their cries for attention and acting on them. Finally, the last thing they want is our endorsement and sympathy for their crimes and behaviour. Giving these particular youths a ‘get-out’ for what they have done by blaming it on the middle classes is unforgivable and incites their well behaved counterparts to wonder why they haven’t followed the same path if there are no repercussions.



  50. Mike on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 09:37

    Wow, Hackney is not a ghetto. The rudeboys shooting each other are out of control. You, I imagine, being born in a nice suburb condescend that anyone bought up in a housing estate in east London will resort to pointless violence. I’ve visited real ghettos in LA and Washington where kids only get to see White people on TV, where the shops are boarded up, burnt out. Where the alienation is total. The kids have school and pleasant environment in Hackney. There is encouragement to focus and succeed and many do. Talking about people being trapped in their poverty the way you do is just another way of keeping up the perception that people can’t break from the environment they are born into. The middle class are annoying but they don’t deserve shooting. Even accidentally.



  51. Aaron on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 10:22

    LoveinHackney. Are you the author by any chance?



  52. Mark on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 10:54

    Yeah, who do these middle class people think they are living in London so that they can be within easy reach of their jobs, and how dare they enjoy the weather in the park. I tell you what, lets just clear out anyone who pays taxes and put them in a concentration camp and build the ‘Kidz’ a palace.

    Are you saying the guy enjoying the first weekend of the summer “Knew the risks, this is ‘edgy’ hackney afterall?” I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make?

    Why don’t they spend the money they would have spent on a gun on maybe going to a museum, or a skateboard, or music equipment? because they are more interested in posturing, intimidating, and being the toughest on their estate. these people were born with the same opportunities as me, you and the guy who was shot. they had a free education for the first 19 years and could have done anything they wanted.

    I can’t believe you are being paid to type out this tripe.



  53. k on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 11:38

    your so typically middle class, self centered and completely deluded. this shooting had nothing to do with you!
    they didnt have a shoot out cos they were jealous of your ray-bans!
    by the looks of it the whole thing wasn’t exactly planned out just to show you how they feel or to make any point directed at YOU



  54. Jes on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 11:56

    I am a young professional originally from South America, I have had the luck of been living and working in London for almost 6 years, also I am fortunate enough to have a good education and all the opportunities in my upbringing, unfortunately this is not the case for the majority of the people in my country and generally in the developing world.
    We are talking about England here, one of the richest and well organized countries in the world, generally there are no excuses for these kids, everybody can access –good- FREE education and health, in most of the world this is almost a luxury that not everybody can afford. Plus in London we all enjoy an incredible environment, top class free museums, countless free festival in summer, and incredible green areas in every single neighbourhood…
    I am not saying that everything should be perfect and I understand that there might be kids having a hard time in their lives but generally speaking people who doesn’t work or decide to spend their lives in crime is for their own election. These gangs should be stopped and controlled with out clemency. Also I join the feeling of the 99% of the posts, the guy who wrote this article is obviously stupid.



  55. Hackney resident on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 12:46

    @ R Jones – Please explain what the immigration and asylum policy has to do with this? Which country do you seem to think these ‘Black Kids’ were shipped over from??

    Your narrow-minded opinion provides no solution to this terrible problem!!!



  56. Lou on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 12:52

    This sounds like it was written by an intern who’s now sitting back in their swivel chair, revelling in the comments stacking up on their first published ‘article’. I hope your parents are proud of you. But perhaps you should have given a thought for the parents of the shooting victim before you penned such an insensitive piece.



  57. Al on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 14:40

    I can hardly believe this was published. Extraordinarily condescending and ignorant.

    Now here is an interesting piece about gangs in Hackney, even if it is five years old:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article566875.ece



  58. Kim on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 14:53

    This article has been penned by someone who is clearly moronic. I was at the Parks for Life festival where the shooting took place on Saturday as part of a multi-racial, multi-class crowd, coming together as a community to enjoy the sunshine, the park and the entertainment on offer. The SportInspired event in particular shows the lengths to which community spirit is being encouraged in Hackney and in other “deprived” London areas, bringing kids (or should that be ‘kidz’?) from all social backgrounds together in an environment where friendly competition and teamwork are encouraged. They certainly were not expected to “stay hidden” but were actively encouraged to take part! Perhaps the author should be a little more thorough in their research before writing off the estate residents as drug-addled incompetents who are incapable of raising happy, healthy, non-homecidal children and equally before blaming those damned Middle Classes (read hard-working, community-spirited indiviuals) for the ills of modern society. Get a grip please.



  59. LMC on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 15:29

    Wow! Amazing. What seemed to be a couple of idiots trying to kill each other was in fact a kind of baroque violence semaphore, trying to tell us that they were here. Presumably they need a bazooka to say anything more complicated. I don’t want to be around when one of these guys makes an after dinner speech.

    In all seriousness though, as a citizen of Hackney who regularly puts his Ray Bans on to take his nephew to that park, I can say that all the crack-addled mothers in the world would not excuse the perpatrator should a bullet come anywhere near my boy.

    No doubt there is a link between poverty and gun crime. But to use poverty as an excuse for violence is wrong, offensive to those of us whose loved ones could have been hurt or killed, and incredibly patronising to people this author apparently thinks so little of that she does not even credit them with the intelligence to know that shooting people is wrong.

    I can’t be bothered to comment on the classic leftist naivety that sees resources as a zero-sum game and so blames people with stuff for the absence of other people’s stuff.

    And as for that z in “kidz”…cringe doesn’t even begin to cover it.



  60. gdpreston on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 15:29

    Thank goodness for the comments section



  61. Sarah on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 15:57

    I think a lot of the criticisms of this post have come about as a result of what philosophers call a category mistake. The post is being evaluated as a piece of ‘journalism’, whereas in fact it is the view of a member of the community who presumably does not classify herself as a ‘journalist’.

    Community newspapers like the Hackney Citizen provide a forum for debate, and if people disagree with posts like this, that’s fine; but to describe it as ‘bad journalism’ is to bump up against the definitional borders between ‘professional journalists’ and ‘readers’ that publications like the Hackney Citizen often intentionally blur.



  62. Aaron on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 16:08

    Thanks for that insight Sarah, good to know the East London Poly’s philosophy course hasn’t been entirely a waste of time for you.

    The only “category mistake” I can see on this forum is the author’s mistaking the movements of their brain for some kind of meaningful insight, rather than simply a loathsome expression of their utter, sheer, ignorance.

    Shit writing is shit writing.



  63. kris on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 16:41

    erm “Kris” et al

    leave me out of your sockpuppetry



  64. Guns are bad M'kay... on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 16:46

    Let us get something straight. There was a shooting in London Fields and someone was fatally injured as a result. It does not appear as if anyone commenting on this story is aware of the cause of the shooting – poverty and race though plausible for some of the posters are not sufficiently justifiable. Moreover, as K has pointed out, it is hard to believe that this about being jealous of you hipster types taking over their turf. If – and this is a highly improbable and hypothetical “if” – that had been the case and the guy was trying to make a point then he would have probably massacred a whole lot of you goofy looking morons.

    Who knows, maybe the individual had provoked the suspect prior to the event? Maybe it was an act of random violence? Maybe the suspect was aiming for someone else and the victim was caught in the crossfire. There could be a long list of reasons which might have led to this kid getting shot. This is obviously regrettable. We should not forget that gun violence is obviously not something that can be tolerated and that someone’s family and friends have been negatively affected.

    Having said that we are lucky that only one person was injured and looking at the comments above, it would appear to me that there is something much more troubling brewing amongst those who have an opinion on this article. Generally people who are posting seem to fall into two categories. The first includes those that BLAME this single act of violence on immigration, poor education, poverty and over-crowded social housing. The second category includes a bunch of whining complacent middle class children who are more concerned with defending their RIGHT to use public spaces whilst being ignorant about the socio-economic issues which predominate impoverished areas which they seek to occupy.

    If you belong to the first group you probably don’t live in the area, so go back to Kensington, or your country home where you won’t have to worry about policing the lost causes which lead directly to gun violence. And if you feel like sun-bathing in safety, there is always the well policed and well protected Hyde Park and St James Park.

    Whether you belong to the first category or the second, you are all guilty of assuming that the absence of violence is something which can simply be expected. For those of you who live in the area, regardless of why you have decided locate yourself there, the fact is that some people have grown up and lived there their whole life, and there are families who have been and will be there for generations. As such they have a real stake in the community.

    This does not mean that the park belongs to them or indeed anybody as some people have suggested, rather there is a wide range of day-to-day issues related to housing, education, the need for community programs, public funding, which are of real concern to these people above and beyond the park which you so love to occupy. Whether you are a young professional working in the city or some kid with dreadlocks working in a cafe, the fact is that none of these issues apply to you, and you are thus apt to be ignorant of some the social and economic issues which are vital to people who are trying to raise a family there.

    While you do indeed have the right to go anywhere you want in the city, at any hour of the day, to do so in ignorance is actually quite offensive. For all you hipsters with your shit moustaches and short shorts, for all you public school kids who have been on gap years in Thailand (if only you could be at the full moon party going on in Bangkok right now), for all you holier than thou moderate guardian reading students who believe in multi-culturalism as a natural phenomenon, for all you young professionals who are too busy living for the weekend, you are all lucky to have not grown up in overcrowded areas where government funded programs are one of the main avenues for keeping the vast amount of youth busy and out of trouble. The people in some of the poorer areas of London are not as fortunate as you.

    So rather than just beating your chest and defending your right to use public parks maybe you should be a little more conscious of your surroundings and the effect you have on them on a daily basis. While the author of the article clearly over-stated their point, it was obviously intended to shake some of you sycophants out of your horse-tranquilzer/cider induced complacency.

    If the communities which you decide to inhabit are so dear to you, then why don’t you try and understand them a bit better rather than simply selfishly asserting your RIGHT to be there. Or even better, try and get involved. Help out your local council, get involved in community oriented programs, support political initiatives that will benefit areas such as Hackney in the long run. Sadly, supporting the local economy by buying stolen bikes and copious amounts of class A drugs just isn’t going to cut it anymore.

    I hate to break it to you, multi-culturalism isn’t going to Fabric with a bunch of Spanish and Italian people until the sun comes up then going to hang out with a bunch of kids with weird hair-cuts from Germany and Australia bbqing in a park and sharing your hash with them. Multi-culturalism involves commitment, hard work, initiative and integration. Multi-culturalism is not for the faint-hearted. It takes a range of governance, policing community activism, and the contribution of individuals for it to work.

    If the park at London Fields and the area around it are truly dear to you then make an effort, at least to be aware of your surroundings. If you do then you’ll realise that the shooting truly was an anomaly and probably not likely to happen much over the summer (knock on wood). However you’ll also notice that sadly there is a more regular pattern of violence related in varying to degrees to some of the problems listed above. While you can’t stopping some yahoo from shooting someone in a public space nor should it be your responsibility, there are many other things you could do to make life for the people in the community better – and god forbid – make a contribution to society in the name of multi-culturalism.

    However, if you’re just waiting for the police and the government to make the area safe for you to raise a family somewhere down the line, then just put those Ray Bans back on; sit back, relax and trim your novelty facial hair as you watch the real world unfold in front of your glazed over eyes and hope for the best. However if you don’t plan on staying for long before moving to somewhere more cozy and need a quick short-term solution, then you could always petition the government you just voted for – you did vote right? – to build a temporary electric fence around the park. You know – to keep out those offensive, ethnic looking types who are constantly drinking and doing drugs in public and who are always parading around on those hideous stolen bicycles like they own the place…



  65. Al on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 17:26

    ‘Guns are bad M’kay’ – you state firstly that someone was fatally injured, then that all the commenters above fall into two categories you seem to have made up. The length of your rant doesn’t disguise the fact that neither of these things are true.



  66. UnapologeticMiddleClass on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 17:44

    Guns are bad m’kay……….I hear what you are saying, however your hatred of the mustached trendies is laughable and immediately invalidates your arguments.

    You also said: “the shooting truly was an anomaly and probably not likely to happen much over the summer”…….Do you know anything about the gang situation in North East London?…….obviously not.



  67. Jes on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 18:03

    Guns are bad m’kay……….you have picked a few random stereotypes to ridicule and categorize a group of people concerned with their safety and the well being of their loved ones. People that for whatever reason happen to hang out or live in Hackney, weather this is temporarily or trough all their lives. Can you blame them for been honestly concern as you blame them for – assumed -stylish inclinations?

    Yes, of course it would be great if more of us gets involved in community work and have a better understanding of the real issues behind these terrible acts…But then again I think you will agree in two thoughts:

    1 _ Going to the park in a sunny day = NOT WRONG (it doesn’t make a different what is your hair style, country of origin or which park are you in).
    2 _ Shooting around thousands of innocent people in the middle of the day, WRONG and LIFE THREATENING.

    I believe nobody is trying to sort out crime in London trough a post but, common, let them express their concern……



  68. Thomas on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 19:37

    “We expect them to stay hidden, keep their ugly poverty away from out rose-tinted Ray Bans”

    No we don’t, we really don’t.

    We expect these equal humans to us, to not fire guns into a packed out park in the middle of the afternoon.

    We expect them to not fire guns into a park at any time.

    We expect them to have the humanistic qualities to not fire guns at all.

    There is a feeling amongst a lot of people I’ve spoken to that now this gun situation is crossing over and hitting innocent people of late, that it is a worse situation, and that we public think it should all be kept ‘within the gangs’ then it’ll be ‘ok.’

    Well I speak for many in saying it’s not ok, and that if these ‘kidz’ want to stand up and be counted, then they are going possibly the worst way around it there is.



  69. Rob on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 20:00

    Guns Are Bad M’Kay…. Watch you don’t topple off that high horse. Your patronising rant misses the point completely. Some idiot shot a gun in a crowded public place and hit an innocent bystander. People of all backgrounds are right to be outraged by that, and by this article’s ludicrous suggestion that it was a cry for help, even if they have a silly moustache



  70. D6b on Tuesday 25 May 2010 at 22:40

    If you honestly think the “kidz” are shooting each other so the middle classes will notice them you really don’t know anything about gang crime in the area. I am a young man on a hackney estate and trust me most of these gangs pay little or no attention to 20 something hipsters, don’t flatter yourself. Do you think the kids in gangs are jealous of people with moustaches or skinny jeans?? they want to be super rich and quick, not middle class. By the way only a few kids on the estates are in gangs and very few if any men or women are trying their best to keep clean , I find that pretty insulting.

    I was there on saturday and anybody who opens fire on a park full of people if a fucking idiot full stop.
    Stop trying to defend what you know nothing about. It would probably be best if you did just ignore us “Kidz” on the estate if that’s the sort of shit you come out with.
    I think you should come live with us on the estate and meet these “kidz” in gangs for yourself.
    We should stand up to these gangs not fucking defend them.
    Thanks for nothing
    D6b



  71. Rob Bob on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 00:11

    Typical.

    I hope you get mugged by one of these Kidz, so you can try and say “I know where you’re coming from Brother. I feel your oppression” before the blade they’re carrying goes into your kidney. And when it does, you can realise they’re just reclaiming their territory and ‘keeping it edgy’ in Hackney.



  72. Guns are bad M'kay... on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 13:17

    Firstly, in my opening paragraph I acknowledged the tragedy of what has happened, and that should not be ignored. However, the outcry from those who are privileged enough not to have to live on a council estate is offensively self-serving. Seeing this shooting as the sum of social and economic inequality while seeing the event simply in terms which frame the incident as an affront to their selfish lifestyles is just ridiculous. Lots of generalisations flying all around the place, most of them reinforcing some fairly grim views – which even if unconsciously – only serve to reinforce your own sense of superiority. And before anyone tries to jump the gun, I do have prejudices (not just against hipsters) in fact we all do. If you fail to admit that your thoughts words, actions, and non-actions perpetuate racial, economic, and social in-equality, then you are only lying to yourself on a regular basis. Self-criticism can be a productive activity – yes, me included.

    Secondly, in response to Jes’ first comment, you are absolutely right, there is nothing wrong with going to the park. In fact I go to the parks (including London Fields) around London on a weekly basis, and I plan on continuing to do so, regardless of the shooting. I also own a straw hat and sun glasses as they are protect me from harmful UV rays. And yes shooting someone is bad, however, we MUST keep things in perspective here and avoid gross generalisations. At the end of the day this is regrettably something which can happen in London, and although the city is more known for its knife violence, we cannot forget that in big, overcrowded cities – yes even developed Western ones – violence does occur for a variety of reasons, none of which can be summed up as simply as most people posting on this page would like to assume.

    Thirdly, in response to Rob, sadly someone spiked my horse’s trough with Ketamine, so he’s pretty fucking high right now, but I think he’ll survive, he is a horse after all. Just to let you know that I did acknowledge that the article had overstated its point. I was simply trying to point out the irony of those, who by rushing to defend their RIGHT to use public spaces, only acted to reinforce their ignorance and sense of entitlement. Similarly the decision to poke fun at certain individuals may have been slightly self-serving but it was meant to rhetorically point out the irony of some of the generalisations that have been getting thrown around (I am thus aware that I am guilty as charged and that not everyone posting on this website is a future posterboy/girl for http://www.latfh.com) . Moreover, whereas a large majority of people to whom I made reference have never interacted with those people which they are so ready to label as socially marginalised, I have had the misfortune of meeting, talking to and generally being surrounded by these holier-than thou trendsetters. They are for the most part self-absorbed, in love with the way they look, and so pitifully unaware of the complex political and social environments which they inhabit. Not to mention, those which happen to be art students are pretty rubbish at what they do (yes I have been to some of your crappy shows).
    Again, this point is not intended to be directed towards the shooting or the events surrounding it, but rather towards those commenting – it is a tangent if you will: Lofty ideals are great in principle, but only in principle.
    As I said, if you are really committed to making them work – to making a positive difference – then it will take a lot of effort and won’t be easy. I suppose I am presenting a challenge to get people to try and contribute a little more in their day-to-day life. If that doesn’t interest you then keep up the fight to defend your way of life against those of others, jump up onto that retro pony of yours and and join me as we all ride off headlong towards the sunset without looking back (no Ray Bans allowed)…

    p.s. No I don’t, nor did I ever, got to SOAS.



  73. Gid on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 14:10

    I was in the park with my two kids on Saturday, i can’t help thinking that if one of those bullets had hit one of them rather that that poor sod who did get shot, their small bodies may not have been able to cope and this would be another Rhys Jones (the boy killed in Liverpool).

    D6b has hit the nail on the head. It’s just ignorance. Why do we have to empathise with these kids outrageous behaviour.

    Sod that, the “kidz” that carried out the shooting at a children’s festival (very gangster) are just shits, plain and simple. Why should we all try and help them?

    Lets help those kids that want no part of gang violence.

    As for the notion of there’s nothing for kids to do, do me a favour.



  74. 20goto10 on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 15:19

    “who by rushing to defend their RIGHT to use public spaces, only acted to reinforce their ignorance and sense of entitlement.”

    GABMK, I agree with much of what I think you’re trying to say, although perhaps not the scattergun delivery which seems to have put people’s noses out of joint. But I have to take issue with the above: if it’s a public space, everyone does indeed have the right to use it, otherwise it wouldn’t be a public space.



  75. GouldTerrorist on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 15:44

    when are we going to ask ? why is it normally young black males commiting these crimes ? The black community needs to start to take responsibility … Diane Abbott needs to stop messing around with the big boys and get down and look at why so many black people are still sitting on the fringes of society …

    One only needs to go to KFC and see the rudeness a lot of black people have for their fellow citizens … The rudeness i see they have for KFC operatives is amazing … Im always thinking in the back of my head … At least these asian fella’s ladeez are working legally and paying taxes … I always have respect for anyone whom works for a living …



  76. Em on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 16:58

    The ‘Guns are Bad’ person, I don’t think many people did feel like they had to defend their right to use public spaces. I think the main reason this article got so many responses was because it seemed to blame middle class people for using these spaces and turn this into a ‘class’ thing. There would be no need to defend your right to use public spaces and to make territorial divides which exist in some people’s heads a reality, because it isn’t a class thing anyway.

    As most people have already agreed (apart from the author) not everyone lives in the way described above just because they are in council flats.

    Gangs and territorial issues are something which alot of the youths/children barely understand themselves, even the ones involved.

    Some of the students I teach (all of whom unfortunately have previous convictions and who have all grown up in Hackney) read the article and thought the points it made were stupid. Tragically, someone was trying to shoot someone else and shot the wrong person. It doesn’t mean we all have to start banging on about class and creating new divides.



  77. Jes on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 17:53

    I join EM’s thoughts, the article got lots of replies because is rather addressing and targeting London Field’s scene -as Guns are bad M’ka’s first post- instead of focusing in the dangerous and traumatic nature of Saturday’s events.

    Probably many of us here have an opinion about London Fields/Broadway Market scene and some of it regulars, but that should not be the matter of this debate where people is discussing a life threatening incident.

    What would have happened if the bullet would have ended in a kid? I mean a real kid, let’s say less than 10 years old. I am sure nobody will be mocking the kid’s nappies or his stolen tricycle….



  78. morag mckeown on Wednesday 26 May 2010 at 22:43

    Some comments above seem to have marginalised my point and created an alternative discussion.
    I am a long time resident and lover of Hackney. I would not live anywhere else.

    I have not said ALL families who live on estates in Hackney have a gun toting gangster for a teenager – that would be ridiculous. Troubled ‘kidz’ come from all backgrounds and all walks of life. The point i was making was that our education and social housing sytems are letting people down. That there are groups of people in Hackney living in abject poverty. I know of families living 5-6 people in two room flats. Some where the damp on the walls is so bad their childrens’ bunk beds are pulled a foot form the walls; asthma and associated illnesses plaguing their children. I know of families isolated and destroyed by every ‘ism’ out there.

    I am one of the ‘trendy and gentrified’ classes, on the outside. I sit in Hackney’s green spaces with my family and friends and i love it.

    my point was – the tragedy and the irony of – the two worlds colliding on Saturday afternoon are a warning to all of us that we must put energy, effort and resources into our community and not simply take it for granted.



  79. Rob Bob on Thursday 27 May 2010 at 01:08

    If you really are the Morag McKeown who wrote the original article…

    “The women try to keep clean, the fathers try to stay clean and the kids run around like toy soldiers marking their small bits of territory with drugs, guns and violence.”

    What exactly do you mean by this? Also, isn’t this assuming that anyone who is from an impoverished background automatically turns to a life of crime?

    “They put the edge in Hackney.”

    No, they put the violence in Hackney.

    “And there we all are: the gentrified middle classes with our picnics, summer hats, beer and buggies. On display, flashing our comfortable, easy-going weekend lifestyles for all to see.”

    So anyone who isn’t one of the ‘kidz’ who attended the park that day is a member of the ‘gentrified middle class’? Your polarisation of Hackney is ludicrous. Are you making a statement about the white middle class here? Are you suggesting black people who attended the festival were offended by white middle class people? Were there no black middle class people there? And were the only people with ‘buggies’ middle class? Not working class? Not white, working class? Or black, for that matter?

    “On display, flashing our comfortable, easy-going weekend lifestyles for all to see.”

    So does this mean that we, as the uber-rich, arrogant middle class, should hide in Chelsea and Richmond, which is apparently where we are all from? ‘Easy-going, weekend lifestyles’ would also imply we don’t work for a living, or don’t earn the right to enjoy a day in the park because we actually have jobs, and don’t live off the state?

    “So the ‘kidz’ decided to remind us THEY ARE HERE! And who can blame them.”

    Do you really think we need reminders that such parasites exist in Hackney? As we walk the streets on our way to our work (yes I know, it’s disgraceful that we have jobs) are we not reminded sufficiently by them in their hooded tops as they brush past us slouching their way down the street, looking down on us like dirt and making the eponymous disgruntled ‘kiss’ sound out of the side of their mouths.

    Who can blame them? Well I for one, but I guess that makes me a minority. How dare I?

    “Their parents are being defeated by generation upon generation of poverty, escaping from war zones, beaten by the system, drowning in smack, crack, alcohol, junk food and trash tv.”

    Firstly, you are generalising. All their parents are not in this position. Secondly, if their parents are in such a position, then indeed they have ‘escaped’ from warzones, i.e. they are no longer ‘in’ warzones, the smack and alcohol they are drowning in is by their own doing, the junk food they are choosing to eat, and trash tv? Please. If they have indeed escaped perscution from a third-world famine-ridden dictatorship, aren’t they remotely thankful that they have plentiful food and television?

    “But their children have still got the anger of untapped potential burning in their hearts.”

    If this were the case, they’d aim to excel at college and make something of their lives, thereby escaping this downtrodden existence you claim they have. Instead, it would seem, they seek only to buy better weapons, and use them however they wish.

    “They protect what they do have, and what they have is territory.”

    What the hell are you talking about? Do you think this is a film or something? They don’t ‘have’ territory. As far as I’m aware, these ‘kidz’ that you admire so much don’t own any land, or even property. ‘Territory’ is a term manufactured by gangs themselves, mainly to invoke imagery of South Central L.A., not Hackney. You might find glamour in violence, but try asking the poor victim of this near tragedy if he feels the same way.

    “Where are the pubs, clubs, cafés, gyms and park equivalents for them?”

    What do you mean by ‘equivalents’? They have access to the same pubs, clubs, cafes, gyms and parks as anybody else. The shooting took place in one of these parks.

    “We expect them to stay hidden, keep their ugly poverty away from out rose-tinted Ray Bans.”

    But they aren’t hidden, nor have they ever been. Not all of them are poor. We don’t all wear Ray Bans.

    “It’s time we woke up, heard their cries for attention, listened to their anger and gave them something of their own.”

    Really? So we have been asleep, have we? While we work ourselves to death, trying to live a normal decent live and look after our families, we should instead have been listening to bored youths, disgruntled with the many council funded distractions that have been paid for out of our taxes, and who opt instead to ape their MTV heroes, similarly parasitic youths who have lucked their way into the bigtime by singing about killing their own kin. My bad. I do apologise.

    Listened to their anger? We don’t really have to crane our heads, do we? This whole article is about them shooting at each other for crying out loud.

    As for giving them something of their own, how about a nice individual cell in a prison?

    “Hackney is taking a deep breath.”

    I’m so glad you speak for Hackney. I’m not sure what you mean by taking a deep breath. Do you think this has made us aware of some plight that we have so long overlooked? What planet are you living on? If anything we are making a deep exhale, in relief that no worse situation transpired after this horrific incident.

    “This could be one long, hot summer, folks.”

    Oh really? Are you reading the back covers of action DVDs as you write this? You realise you’re talking about real people here, and real guns, and the real potential of death. Are you saying let the ‘kidz’ have their way while we stay indoors all summer, or are you suggesting we hug a hoodie, and perhaps offer them a donation less their ‘anger’ gets ‘heard’ again?

    Finally, don’t dare use the word ‘folks’ – you aren’t representative of most of us who have replied on this board. To most of us, you’re actually less morally reprehensible than the shooters themselves; they at least are victims of a poor education and perhaps (I say perhaps) some of the conditions you mentioned.

    You, on the other hand, have actually vomited up this trash with the benefit of an education, and have sided with the perpetrators of the incident, claiming it ‘was a long time coming’ because ‘we didn’t listen enough’. Someone got shot the other week in Hackney, again an innocent bystander, but unfortunately she actually died. Did she deserve it, in your humble opinion. Is a weekly cry for attention letting us off lightly? Or should we be thankful it’s not more often?

    As I said in my earlier post, justice (in my humble opinion) would be best served if it were you lying in a hospital after the next cry for attention, the innocent victim of a stray bullet from the oh-so-belittled-youth, being told by a doctor that given the entry point of the wound, it would be unlikely if you’d ever walk again.

    Just think, you’d probably still be able to write though! I’d love to hear your revised opinions in such a situation.



  80. GouldTerrorist on Thursday 27 May 2010 at 13:27

    Loving Rob Bob’s comments … Nice one mate !!!



  81. kris on Thursday 27 May 2010 at 14:12

    I think I’m in love with Rob Bob.

    I was thinking the “hearts crying out” bollix reminded me of “Definitely Maybe”‘s liner notes.



  82. eucalyptuz on Thursday 27 May 2010 at 15:33

    Yeah! You tell him Rob Bob



  83. Jeffrey Andreoni on Thursday 27 May 2010 at 22:17

    Gould’s comments suck! I am sorry I asked for you to put them back.



  84. Susan Schembri on Friday 28 May 2010 at 13:09

    Rob BOb very intelligent article ….I am writing from Canada my son lives in Hackney ….working hard at 2 jobs to attain his dream in music .Most people living there are doing just that working 2 to 3 jobs because they have an artistic dream .And they dont come from wealth …they come from a place of resposibility and committment and hard work .The kind of people you speak of have an opportunity to make their lives better bc they have come from a horrible place . In canada as I know you have there as well we have all kinds of programs in place to help immigrant …all of them here live free and learn free …..and we have the same problems you are writing about !! Maybe the problem is that everything has been handed out and that is wht they continue to be disfunctional!!!



  85. Rob Bob on Friday 28 May 2010 at 19:06

    Thank-you Susan.

    It might interest you to know that in Britain the welfare state and government initiatives to help the unemployed are better than in most countries. I’m not sure how it is in Canada, but in the States there isn’t a system in place as beneficial to the ‘kidz’ as exists here.

    The difference of course, is that over here policeman are unarmed (for the most part) and we have laws that encourage an overuse of political correctness, in how we deal with suspects. Over here they know they aren’t going to be shot by the police. It would be different in another European country, or North America.



  86. Angie on Saturday 29 May 2010 at 00:42

    Totally agree with Rob…….well said! What the hell are you on about girl? I’m from one of those impoverished council estates you talk about and I was in London Fields that day, I DO NOT think it is ok for the ‘kidz’ or outright ‘hooliganz’ (Oh yeah, using a z is sooooo much more white middle class!!) as I like to call them is ok shooting guns in our parks. It has to be stopped and the police need to do more about these little gangs and the little shits that run around in their bloody hoodies shooting randomly at innocent people. It sickens me your article and whoever is the editor should be ashamed for printing it! Go get a real job, maybe helping these kidz…….really!!!!



  87. Alex on Wednesday 2 June 2010 at 13:18

    I know this area having lived there for the last 10 years, way before Broadway market looks today. This article sounds like so many others churned out about the ‘Gentrification’ of the area and all the easy references to ‘buggies’ ‘fashionistas’ ‘Lidl’ etc. The real losers in all this are locals who aren’t either of these extremes, which is most of us ! Neither high flying media execs. nor drug dealers.This article is just smug
    journalism and just helps to further divide the area. Work needs to be done to form bonds between community minded people from across the social spectrum to tackle these problems. Obviously the shocking state of the local authority housing stock has to be invested in, urgently, but to say that these ‘poor’ ‘deprived’ kids are pre-destined to be gang members is offensive to the hundreds who are working hard to get an education and a better life for themselves. But then, I suppose none of this makes for a snappy editorial !!!



  88. Tarik on Thursday 3 June 2010 at 03:05

    Seriously? No – seriously? One of the worst pieces of journalism I’ve ever seen? Maybe, perhaps, possibly.



  89. GouldTerrorist on Friday 4 June 2010 at 14:49

    @jeffery just keepin’ it real … i dont give a d*mn about being politically correct i speak my mind … i dont want to live in a war zone … its poverty of mind that is causing this kind of violence and it appears to affect the black community more than white … there are no morals and no sense in these gangs and im sick of it !



  90. VS on Friday 4 June 2010 at 22:50

    Of course gang violence is related to poverty, but more so mental illness and misogyny. One of the most disturbing things these young males do is gang rape young girls to “initiate” them into the gang or mark them as some kind of possession. I am a youth worker in Islington and hear stories all the time, from colleagues and young ppl, and there is absolutely NO excuse for some of the shit these kids do to others. No doubt some or all of these kids have experienced severe deprivation and I am sure they lack positive male role models and see their future panning out with little to no prospects. But I am loathe to attribute violence to an individuals class background – it assumes class determines an individual’s capacity for violence and I have met some pretty violent rich fuckers in my time. It is a choice, pure and simple, to pull that trigger, kidnap or rape someone.

    At Rob Bob – I really like some of your points. But giving these kids their own jail cell is not the solution. They will just be spat out at the other end more violent, fucked up and ready for crime. I know kids who have been inside and can’t wait to go back. Prison is a free bed, a free meal, escape from some of the stresses in their life, gives them routine and predictability and means they take no responsibility for what they’ve done. They learn the tricks of the trade and make a whole lotta contacts. I also know kids who are deeply traumatised by their time in jail. Either way prisons are counterproductive and shouldn’t be seen as the only option. Restorative justice programs differ depending on the severity of the crime, but as long as the government panders to the private companies who wanna profit from the incarceration of criminals privatised prisons will continue to be the only “solution” and pump out more and more young thugs that you see now in London Fields. I don’t have all the answers but I still think it is good to critique the only solutions that are on offer and come up with other ideas of what to actually do with these kids.

    I’m through trying to understand and go around in circles about WHY they do it, I think I’ve got a pretty fair idea – power, money, status, pride, sexism, sever mental health problems, having nothing to lose. I don’t really care to be honest. What I’m interested in is WHAT does a community actually do with young people who turn to such violence?



  91. Lorelei on Friday 4 June 2010 at 23:50

    Two weeks on, and I just walked home past some more cordon tape at exactly the same spot, the corner of Shrubland.

    Google has nothing to say on the matter yet, but I asked the police man what happened. His casual answer was, ‘someone got shot. But it wasn’t a fatality,’ he hastened to add, as though that made it OK.

    ‘Oh. That’s fine then.’ I wanted to reply. But something told me sarcasm would be lost on him.

    Nevermind the opinionated ramblings, interesting though they are.

    What are the police actually doing about this?

    p.s. Is Morag at home with her P45 yet?



  92. Longtimeresident on Saturday 5 June 2010 at 11:05

    Unfortunately streets are what these kids fight over, london fields borders postcodes and the london fields boys protect it (dont ask me why)..
    ‘The catwalk’ .. sorry ive never heard it called that before…how about ‘the ambush’? Ive been jumped riding through on my bike before so they can steal it.
    We only had the street lights put in a few years ago, before then you would NEVER see people sat out barbequeing sliced aubergine and drinking pinot grigio from plastic champagne flutes… does make me laugh
    I can-not afford to buy the food on a saturday down the market, so totally sympathise with real locals who feel excluded from the whole ‘scene’
    Im all for change, and things have got better than ten years ago when we would regularly have opposing gangs of over 200 fighting on the streets around trederwen road/westgate street.
    I see the argument from both sides, I dont think the kids are in any way jealous, as robrob pointed out, they can sell us class a drugs and stolen bikes…
    I just think the grass burning yummys and moustachios should have a little more sensetivity about where they are….



  93. VS on Saturday 5 June 2010 at 12:02

    good point Long time resident.



  94. Longtimeresident on Saturday 5 June 2010 at 18:01

    And if you think the policing levels round here are bad now its a damn sight better than even 5 years ago! I think its now got to the stage where they cant just ignore the problems any-more, Hackney council like the ‘middle class’ money thats suddenly arrived in the area and therefore have had to step up the police presence.
    About 6 years ago I spotted a gang of kids around my motorbike stealing it, I rang 999 and was on the phone to the police reporting what was happening.,,
    The kids rode off on the bike, the police never turned up, and I got a call back 20 minutes later asking if they were still there!? Same when there has been huge gang fights out on the streets.. the police just dont turn up!
    Dont even get me started on Dublin Avenue….
    The few houses next to the corner shop on shrubland seem to be where a lot of the trouble is centered, after a few houses on Dublin avenue had eviction notices served it calmed down a lot, why cant the same happen here?
    Ill go back to my heroin habit anyway as my views as a working class, social housing occupant are obviously not valid…



  95. Tom on Monday 7 June 2010 at 10:03

    Yep, you are an idiot Morag



  96. hackneyboy! on Monday 7 June 2010 at 19:51

    Kidz?!?!?

    Most of these ‘kidz’ are old enough to get off their arses and GET A JOB! But then as an employer, would you employ a hoodie or a hip hop gangsta that walks around with hand down his trousers fondling his privates?

    On the point of poverty..some of these KIDZ drive around in GTI’s, mercedes or BMWs…



  97. hackneyboy! on Monday 7 June 2010 at 19:54

    oooh…and on the point of poverty, there’s the packaging a new flat screen tv outside the flats on my estate almost every week.



  98. Hector on Wednesday 9 June 2010 at 10:38

    Suggesting Hackney has worse poverty than other cities in Britain is absurd. This is London Morag, plumbers make 50K a year here. You’ve obviously never seen the industrial north of this country.

    I saw the “Kidz” as Morag puts it running through the crowd when this shooting took place the other week. They were very well fed and very well dressed by the way. This country has free education, a free health service and a generous benefits system. It aint the congo or Brazil. These “Kidz” (where the fck did you come up with that term Morag?) are choosing a lifestyle.



  99. slyme68 on Wednesday 9 June 2010 at 17:57

    @GouldTerrorist I think you are a racist.

    @VS the point on prison making the problem worse is very true, it’s not for nothing they’re called universties of crime. You also ask what communities themselves are doing about the crisis affecting some young people’s culture, so

    @ all of you, why are our community and residents associations dying out? why do our community organisations struggle for volunteers and committee members? why is the council allowed to reduce funds to playschemes etc year on year? (the voluntary sector grant budget was cut by 50% to pay for the Ocean – what a good project that turned out to be)

    Just as gang violence is a culture we can do without so community responsibility and participation is a culture we need to increase. No matter how upwardly mobile Hackney may be becoming, money can’t buy me love.



  100. GouldTerrorist on Monday 14 June 2010 at 11:12

    stereo types developed in the human psyche to protect us … man feared a lion or a violent tribe for good reason …



  101. del on Wednesday 16 June 2010 at 11:19

    I dont get it – what are we meant to do to show sensitivity to those who do not have what I do – either in terms of a job, education, house or family.

    Am I suppossed to eat £3.50 chicken and fries greasebox instead of a broadway market ethic lunch for £6?

    Am I supposed to not provide the best home I can for my wife and kid? Do I have to spray it down with water and grow mould instead of spending my weekends and cash improving, painting, decorating it so the house is as nice as possible?

    Do I have to pack the place full of children, parents and other hanger ons so that we also have also have density issue?

    Do I pull my kids out of school, so that they fail to get an education as well?

    Shall I quit my job, quit reading the economist, the FT, etc so my knowlegde of the world shrinks to a little circle around E8/E9?

    Should I start accepting benefits for housing, unemployment and kids, so I can wander the streets bored all day and not be able to afford the things that make life more enjoyable/easy, while not availing myself of all the great free constructive things there are to do in London?

    Should I start dealing crack etc, wear a hoodie, ride a bike and threaten, maim and kill children because they dont live in my postcode?

    Should I throw all my middle class aspirations and values out the window and start accepting the criminal code as the measure of my life?



  102. Longtimeresident on Friday 18 June 2010 at 12:09

    Please don’t del!

    I honestly think that’s what they would like though!



  103. peter wells on Wednesday 9 February 2011 at 13:42

    So HACKNEY HAS A PROBLEM IT HAD ONE IN 1936 when I was born in talavera place but no one used guns knives or any thing else apart from there hands seems to be a bit of a divide in hackney know dtween the working class and the middle class I used to work a stall in broadway market in the 1960s wonderfull place hackney council have a lot to answer for but back then it was a working class area I hear they play cricket on london fields so it cant be that bad may be to many yuppy types have moved in now but nothing wrong with social housing it was all the area had in the 1930s no trouble in hoxton was therebut hackney is known as the murder capital of england and with these jockers in govt, now and all therecuts in services it aint going to get better like real soon is it . like many of my age bracket I remember how nice the area was during the years the kray twins were around well I used to knock about with terry spinks brother and many a time i have been in his house when they were all playing cards .
    but back in the 1940 period I hade moved to hommerton and found it rather a peacfull area billy wells was my dad he wasbest known as a hustler for money on the dart boaed with his minder billy croucher who had been an army boxing champion



  104. The Great Smell Of Brute on Wednesday 9 February 2011 at 15:26

    To anyone who regards the gentrification of Hackney as a bad thing, may I suggest that you look beyond the borough boundary to grotty Tottenham, as an illustration of what an UNgentrified area with awful social problems looks like? Just a thought…



  105. rob on Monday 6 February 2012 at 13:17

    This article is laughably bad. I doubt you’d hold the same opinion if it was you who had been shot by the ‘Kidz’.



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